Israel is an apartheid state. There are no moral doubts once you dehumanise Palestinians: Israeli Journalist Gideon Levy on Cine Ink podcast London Vārta

By Pervaiz Alam

Once, The Independent, British daily, described Gideon Levy as ‘the most hated man in Israel – and perhaps the most heroic’. However, there are millions of people all over the world who admire him for his courage as they read his opinion pieces published in Haaretz. I’m one of them.

It was sheer privilege meeting Gideon Levy at the 11th Jaipur Literature Festival in London in the month of June, 2024. He came across as unassuming, soft-spoken, with the looks of a handsome actor, having a baritone voice.

I requested him for an interview and he immediately granted me one. You can listen to him on Cine Ink podcast London Vārta.

One of the most outspoken critics of Israel’s policies against the Palestinian people, Levy calls Israel- an apartheid state. He has reported extensively from the Occupied Palestinian Territories. He has documented the atrocities committed against the Palestinians in his reports, including Israel’s 2009 invasion of Gaza.

His best-selling book “The Punishment of Gaza” portrays how the ground was prepared for the 2009 assault and documents its continuing effects. His forthcoming book, The Killing of Gaza: Reports on a Catastrophe, is much anticipated in the international community. Here’s the complete transcript of his interview with me.

I don’t justify what happened on 7th October, 2023, but …

Pervaiz Alam: How do you look at the 7th of October attack on Israel by Hamas?

Gideon Levy: Like everything in life, also, the 7th of October has a context. I know Israelis don’t like to hear it, and they blame you immediately that you justify what happened on the 7th. No, I don’t justify what happened. I condemn it bitterly. It was criminal, and it didn’t serve even the Palestinian cause for long. But it has a context. It was not out of the blue sky. When you put 2.3 million people for 18 years now in the biggest cage in the world, you should expect any kind of resistance and struggle, even the most brutal and cruel and criminal one, and this what we faced. And, then the aftermath.

Pervaiz Alam: Did you notice anything special with that attack on the 7th of October? You have seen Hamas acting against Israeli installations, Israeli targets. What was so different this time on the 7th of October?

Gideon Levy: The difference was their success, their operational success, which I don’t think they even had foreseen such a success. And it’s not their success, it’s the colossal failure of the Israeli army. This is the main surprise, because the intentions of Hamas are not new, and we knew always that they would try as much as they can to penetrate into Israel. But who saw that they can do it with all the devices, all the money Israel had invested in the border between Gaza and Israel, and then they come on their motorcycles and pick up cars and just went into the kibbutzim and start to slaughter people. Nobody could foresee the IDF, the Israeli defence forces, are so weak, so fragile, so unprofessional, after all the money that was invested in them.

Most of the Israelis live in denial. Once you dehumanise Palestinians then there are no moral questions…

Pervaiz Alam: But the questions you have raised just now are not being asked in Israel. I mean, you are an exception, Gideon Levy, and for being an exception, you have your own enemies in Israel. Why aren’t they asking those questions in Israel? And I mean, in terms of majority of the people.

Gideon Levy: I don’t think I’m a better person than the other Israelis, but I don’t live in denial. While most of the Israelis live in denial, the Israeli media helps them to live in denial, not to know, not to see, not to be accountable for anything, and to believe that we have the right to do whatever we want, and there is no one else around us. And if there is someone around us, if there is another people living next to us, they humanise them, and then there are no moral doubts. Once you dehumanise them, then there are no moral questions, and no questions about morality and human rights and international law, they are not human beings. So there is no all this goes through the veins of the Israelis for many years, and especially after a traumatic event like the 7th of October, it has intensified Israelis. Most of the Israelis, after what happened on the 7th of October, think they can do whatever they want, and nobody can stop them. Until now, they were convinced to be right.

Pervaiz Alam: Gideon Levy, I know that you face the wrath of the establishment in Israel. Describe it for me.

Gideon Levy: My problem is not with the establishment. My problem is with the people in the street, with the establishment. I can’t complain, no pressure, no threats, nothing. I mean, I have no problems with the Israeli establishment on a personal basis, my problem is to realise that in this war, even the best of my friends changed their minds and to feel that nobody wants to hear and nobody wants to know, and everyone is hostile toward any expression which might bring us to the thought that the Palestinians are human beings. This is unacceptable now…

Israel is an apartheid state. I don’t know any other definition…

Pervaiz Alam: And, you think that’s in the majority of the cases, that’s almost all the cases. So, this means that suppose there’s a ceasefire tomorrow. Probably, Benjamin Netanyahu will not be there. What about the other things? Would they remain the same, or they’re likely to change in terms of having a long term peace between these two nations- Israel and Palestine.

Gideon Levy: No, we are far than ever from this. Nobody even speaks about it. Nobody dreams about it, and very few want it. I must be frank with you. I mean, everyone wants peace. I. But the conditions that the Israelis want now are totally impossible conditions. They want peace with all the rights, or they want peace with who is maintaining the apartheid. And this doesn’t work and will never work, so we are far away even to discuss this now, because we are at the lowest point ever, ever since the State of Israel and the state of India were established on the same year (1947).

Pervaiz Alam: It’s very rare for an Israeli to call the system apartheid. Why do you call it apartheid?

Gideon Levy: I don’t know any other definition. If you go to the West Bank and you see two villages, one has all the resources and all the rights, and the other one has no resources and no any civil rights, including even not citizenship. How else can you call it if not apartheid? I don’t know another name. I mean, it looks like apartheid. It works like apartheid, and it is apartheid for many years.

Hundreds of Palestinians killed, thousands arrested and kidnapped in West Bank…

Pervaiz Alam: How would you describe the situation in West Bank. I’m not talking about Gaza. What has happened since October the seventh in West Bank?

Gideon Levy: Because, nobody is talking about the West Bank. The settlers took over, and they are doing things together, obviously, with the army, that they would never dare to do before.

First of all, we have to remember that hundreds of Palestinians, I think it’s over 500 now, maybe more were killed in those months. You never heard about it. Secondly, many thousands were arrested, kidnapped, because most of them were not brought to court. The Israeli democracy is holding thousands of Palestinians without trial in jail. This cannot meet basic criteria of a democracy, having thousands of people in jail without trial, and above all, the settlers became more violent than ever, and they are taking over and confiscating more and more lands from the Palestinian shepherds, usually from the weakest ones, and they do it on a daily basis, and there is no one to stop them, and no one to protect the shepherds.

The two-state solution is the train that left the station, and there is only one alternative to two state solution…

Pervaiz Alam: The world is talking about a two-state solution (This formula calls for two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side peacefully with security for both). There were lots of countries that had already recognised Palestine as a nation. I remember, India in 1988 had recognised the Palestinian state, and now about 150 countries have recognised Palestine as a state. Now, I understand that you used to be a supporter of the two-state solution. I guess you are not anymore, supporting the two-state solution. So what is it that you are supporting now?

The two state solution is the train that left the station, and there is only one alternative to two state solution. And what is that? And the alternative is only the one state solution. Now you will ask me, one state- how will they live together, with all the hatred and the fears? So I must tell you, first of all, they are living together for decades. We are in a one state. We don’t have to create it. It is there.

All the Palestinians between the river and the sea are living under Israeli control, under Israeli rule. And the only thing that should be changed is the regime of this one state, and we have to start to work on it. At least we have a vision of one person, one vote, this very basic thing for democracy, outspoken thing, namely equality. That’s the only thing we are asking for equality. And if Israel says no to equality, Israel, by itself, declares itself as an official, formal apartheid state. We have to work it. We have to change the discourse, not to speak about settlers and not about boundaries, but about the democratisation between the river and the sea, one democratic state.

Pervaiz Alam: Do you really think this is going to happen? Even the two-state solution is a problem for Israel and for lots of Israeli supporters.

Gideon Levy: Two-state solution is off the table. It’s not that. It’s an option at all, and we are facing now two remained alternatives. This one state which exists can be either an apartheid state or a democracy, if the world will decide that it does not interfere like he did with the first apartheid state and let it go. So we will live forever in an apartheid state. If the world will decide that it will treat this apartheid state in the same tools like the first apartheid state, we might see a democracy. I don’t I have no guarantees, but there is no such choice.

Grandparents killed in Holocaust, parents fled from Europe…

Pervaiz Alam: I understand your parents, mother and father, separately, came from Czechoslovakia, yeah, but that used to be Czechoslovakia, right? That that was the time, and somehow they reached what we call now Israel. And then your grandparents were not able to make it. What happened?

Gideon Levy: So they came separately, as you rightly said. My father from was from a German area in Czechoslovakia, the Sudeten, where German was the language, and the Germans were the people there. And he felt quite assimilated. He had no interest in Zionism and very little in Judaism, until 1939 when Hitler penetrated into Czechoslovakia, his first aggressive step. My father went on an illegal boat, which was for five months in the sea, five months! I don’t know how they made it, 600 people on a small boat for five months on the sea. No port would accept them, until they were detained in Beirut, Lebanon by the Brits. And finally they made it illegally into Palestine. He said goodbye to his parents and fiancé in the railroad station of Prague in 1939, he said goodbye to his academic career, because he had a PhD in law, which he would never use anymore in Israel. He started a new life here. He started with his PhD in law, in baking cakes and going from door to door and offering his cakes.

Pervaiz Alam: Your father opened a bakery shop?

Gideon Levy: Yes, and not only this, he used to knock on the doors of people and offer his cakes. That’s the way he made his living with a PhD in law. But that’s the fate of refugees. My mother came with a special project then of saving children from the Holocaust. So she came at 16, without her parents, alone, to a kibbutz. Her parents made it, and came in 1942 to Israel. My father’s parents never made it.

Pervaiz Alam: What happened to them?

Gideon Levy: They both died. We know very little about it, but we know that they were sent to Treblinka, to one of the extermination camp, and my grandfather might have died from a disease. My grandmother was murdered, but I know too little about it.

Pervaiz Alam: This much I know about you that as a child, as a youngster, you grew up in a very religious kind of an atmosphere, which means that you were a nationalist, you were a supporter of the Zionism, right?

Gideon Levy: Like everyone else in Israel of those times, not religious, but Zionist. Zionist, like everyone else, there were no exceptions. In those years, there was no room for an exception, because we were quite brainwashed by the education system.

Pervaiz Alam: And you joined the defence forces. IDF, right? You worked with them.

Gideon Levy: Absolutely, I was a good Tel Aviv boy!

Good Tel Aviv Boy works for Israeli Army, Zionism, Shimon Peres and Haaretz…

Pervaiz Alam: But the good, interesting thing, from my point of view is, as a radio man, as a broadcaster, who has worked for a long time in radio, that you were working for the Israeli radio, as a reporter?

Gideon Levy: Not the Israeli, the army radio. I was a reporter, I was an editor, I was a presenter. Four years, I did it. I enjoyed it a lot. Very happy years then.

Pervaiz Alam: This was in the 1970s I suppose, right?

Gideon Levy: Right.

Pervaiz Alam: And then, and then you came back and joined the newspaper?

Gideon Levy: No, before I was four years, the aide of Shimon Peres.

Pervaiz Alam: Oh, Shimon Peres. Yes, you were working with him. The man who was the prime minister of Israel and President as well. Of course, a legendary man.

Gideon Levy: Absolutely. I worked with him when he was Chairman of the Labour (Party) and leader of the Israeli opposition for four years.

Pervaiz Alam: And, after that, you joined Haaretz, the progressive, left-wing newspaper in Israel?

Gideon Levy: And, ever since, I’m there for many, many decades.

Pervaiz Alam: You also became the deputy editor of Haaretz for some time?

Gideon Levy: For some time. But don’t mention it, because those were not the happiest years. I like to be out, outside the offices, to be out in the field.

Pervaiz Alam: Now, you’re a columnist with The Haaretz, right? And you also write for various newspapers?

Gideon Levy: No, only for Haaretz in English and Hebrew. Haaretz is maybe the only one of the very few newspapers in the world which appears every day in two languages.

Pervaiz Alam: How did things change for you, a great supporter of Zionism, just like any other, of course, in Israel, and then very right wing in your approach?

Gideon Levy: No, I was never very right wing. No, I was in the centre, like everyone, average, serving the army.

Pervaiz Alam: And, now you say very difficult things about the IDF – difficult to digest, the things that you say against the failure of the Israeli defence system, and the failure of the Israeli Government in terms of protecting the Palestinian lives as well. So, that is unheard of in Israel. What changed for you? How did you become progressive, or let’s say a left-winger or maybe a kind of a considerate person?

Gideon Levy: Only one thing. I started to travel to the occupied territories many, many years ago. I think that most of my colleagues and almost all the Israelis never do. And I started to document the crimes there in the beginning. You know, quite accidentally here, there, some stories, until I realised that I wanted to dedicate my career to covering the occupation. And the more I saw, the more radical I became.

I am a patriot, because I care about the future of Israel. But I’m not a Zionist. Zionism today means Jewish supremacy between the river and the sea…

Pervaiz Alam: And now? How do you describe yourself? I read somewhere that you call yourself a patriot.

Gideon Levy: Yes. Because, I think that patriotism does not mean obeying blindly to nationalism by all means, not my patriotism. I care about Israel. I care a lot about Israel. I never left Israel, and I have no intention to leave Israel. That’s my place. I was born there. I’d die there. And I’m very much invested emotionally in Israel, and therefore I allow myself to call myself a patriot, because I care about the future of Israel, but I’m not a Zionist.

Pervaiz Alam: So, you’re not a Zionist anymore. What’s wrong with Zionism, by the way?

Gideon Levy: Zionism today means Jewish supremacy between the river and the sea, and I cannot live in peace with any kind of national supremacy over another nation.

To label any criticism of Israel as anti semitism is Israeli and Jewish propaganda. Unfortunately, Europe is falling into this trap.

Pervaiz Alam: Between the river and the sea, you said it. I haven’t said it. The moment I say it, probably somebody would declare me as Anti-semitic, right? What’s wrong with this expression, anti-semitism? Because, every second person who criticises the Israeli army is called anti-semitic.

Gideon Levy: Because, that’s a very manipulative way of propaganda of Israeli and Jewish propaganda, namely, to label any criticism of Israel as anti semitism. And, surprise, it’s working like hell. Europe is totally paralysed. You cannot raise your voice against Israel in Europe, because immediately you are labelled as an Anti-Semite, and Europe is still remembering the Holocaust, and rightly so. And to be labelled as an anti Semite is really a stain still, and it should be a stain. The only problem is that not any, every critic, each critic of Israel, is an anti Semite, but that’s the manipulation of Israeli propaganda, and, unfortunately, Europe falling into this trap.

Guilt! In Europe, there were very few who really resisted Nazism…

Pervaiz Alam: What’s the problem in Europe? Is it a kind of a guilt conscious?

Gideon Levy: Yes, absolutely.

Pervaiz Alam: What sort of guilt?

Gideon Levy: They all carry, some kind of guilt about what happened 70-80, years ago.

Pervaiz Alam: So, some of them find themselves, somehow, involved in that. May be Germany, to an extent. But what about other nations?

Gideon Levy: No, every nation has its own stain. In Europe, there were very few who really resisted Nazism. Don’t forget that we had many collaborators and and for sure, about saving the Jews their own citizens, almost all countries did nothing. There were two three exceptions, like Bulgaria, like Denmark, but most of the countries did nothing about saving their Jewish citizens, and that’s guilty feeling, a very justified one, but it shouldn’t be manipulated for political purposes.

Jews vs Muslims vs Christians: We should work on creating some kind of justice, peace will come later. Peace should be the bonus…

Pervaiz Alam: For Israel, the enemy number one is, of course, a Palestinian, but then you know, in other words, a Muslim. Let’s call a spade a spade. Yes. Do you really think that the Muslims are the enemies of Israel or Jews?

Gideon Levy: I don’t even think the Palestinians are enemies of Jews. I think that once we’ll treat the Palestinians with some kind of justice. No total justice will never be done but some kind of justice and respect, we will be surprised. There will be no resistance. There will always be resistance to the State of Israel in Palestine, or to any, any kind of presence of Jews in Palestine, but it will be marginal. I don’t think it’s about being enemies. I think it’s about making justice prevail.

Pervaiz Alam: How can the Jews live in peace and tranquillity? I’m talking about the threats that are likely to come from various quarters.

Gideon Levy: It’s again, the denial that they live in. They all live in a denial, and the media is collaborating with this. Israelis don’t give themselves a full report about the reality that they created.

Pervaiz Alam: What about you? I mean, do you really think that sort of peace is possible between Israel and the Palestinians, and the Jews and the Muslims?

Gideon: Right now? Not. It’s off the table. And I think peace should be the bonus. We should work on creating some kind of justice, peace will come later.

Pervaiz Alam: Do you think that there could be a good relationship between the Jews and the Christians?

Gideon Levy: Even Jews and Muslims for centuries had good relations. We are all human beings. Finally, they should. It can be possible. You just have to create the right conditions and to stop the incitement and to stop the hatred and the fear. It’s also fear, not only hatred from both sides.

Any Tips for journalists in India and Pakistan? Israel for its Jewish citizens is a real liberal democracy…

Pervaiz Alam: Let me ask you about those people who live in India and Pakistan, and other countries, and may be Arab countries as well. They love reading your edit pieces. Because, you are progressive.You are talking about the Palestinian rights. You are criticising the Israeli government. But then the same people lack courage to write about their own societies, and against their own governments. How do you survive in such an atmosphere? What would be the lessons, the tips, that you would like to share with those people who in their respective countries would like to emulate Gideon Levy? Maybe, they would like to follow your path. Maybe, they would like to be the voice of resistance in their own countries. What are those tips?

If you ask about tips, it’s very easy for me to say, and it’s not always implementable in every country. But I know one thing, say what you really believe in. Again, it’s so easy to throw this cliche and to say, yeah, go to jail, spend half of your life in jail and feel good about yourself. No, this is a little arrogant for me to say so in the conditions that Israel provided me saying the truth and paying a limited price is the best deal in town.

There is military censorship in Israel…

Pervaiz Alam: I understand your newspaper, Haaretz, faced some problems during the last three, four months. Is it still facing those problems? A news story was redacted in your paper. This was about the Mossad chief. So, there are certain restrictions on newspapers in Israel.

Gideon Levy: There is censorship in Israel, military censorship, which is very, very limited, and by far, it’s not an excuse for Israeli media not to speak up. By all means, it’s not an excuse. The military censorship shouldn’t be there. It’s the only so called democracy in the world, which has a censorship at all. But that’s not a problem for Israeli media, by far, not. I wish this was to be the problem. The problem in Israeli media is self censorship.

Pervaiz Alam: Thank you very much. Gideon Levy, it’s a pleasure. It’s an honour. It’s a privilege talking to you.

Gideon Levy: Same for me. Thank you very much for having me.

You can listen to Gideon Levy in conversation with Pervaiz Alam on Cine Ink podcast London Vārta, available on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. Produced by Achala Sharma.

Once, The Independent, British daily, described Gideon Levy as ‘the most hated man in Israel – and perhaps the most heroic’. However, there are millions of people all over the world who admire him for his courage as they read his opinion pieces published in Haaretz. I’m one of them.

I requested him for an interview and he immediately granted me one. You can listen to him on Cine Ink podcast London Vārta.

I don’t justify what happened on 7th October, 2023, but …

Pervaiz Alam: How do you look at the 7th of October attack on Israel by Hamas?

Most of the Israelis live in denial. Once you dehumanise Palestinians then there are no moral questions…

Gideon Levy: I don’t think I’m a better person than the other Israelis, but I don’t live in denial. While most of the Israelis live in denial, the Israeli media helps them to live in denial, not to know, not to see, not to be accountable for anything, and to believe that we have the right to do whatever we want, and there is no one else around us. And if there is someone around us, if there is another people living next to us, they humanise them, and then there are no moral doubts. Once you dehumanise them, then there are no moral questions, and no questions about about morality and human rights and international law, they are not human beings. So there is no all this goes through the veins of the Israelis for many years, and especially after a traumatic event like the 7th of October, it has intensified Israelis. Most of the Israelis, after what happened on the 7th of October, think they can do whatever they want, and nobody can stop them. Until now, they were convinced to be right.

Pervaiz Alam: Gideon Levy, I know that you face the wrath of the establishment in Israel. Describe it for me.

Israel is an apartheid state. I don’t know any other definition…

Pervaiz Alam: It’s very rare for an Israeli to call the system apartheid. Why do you call it apartheid?

Hundreds of Palestinians killed, thousands arrested and kidnapped in West Bank…

Pervaiz Alam: How would you describe the situation in West Bank. I’m not talking about Gaza. What has happened since October the seventh in West Bank?

Gideon Levy: Because, nobody is talking about the West Bank. The settlers took over, and they are doing things together, obviously, with the army, that they would never dare to do before. First of all, we have to remember that hundreds of Palestinians, I think it’s over 500 now, maybe more were killed in those months. You never heard about it. Secondly, many thousands were arrested, kidnapped, because most of them were not brought to court. The Israeli democracy is holding thousands of Palestinians without trial in jail. This cannot meet basic criteria of a democracy, having thousands of people in jail without trial, and above all, the settlers became more violent than ever, and they are taking over and confiscating more and more lands from the Palestinian shepherds, usually from the weakest ones, and they do it on a daily basis, and there is no one to stop them, and no one to protect the shepherds.

The two-state solution is the train that left the station, and there is only one alternative to two state solution…

Gideon Levy: First of all, I’m a great supporter of the two state solution. I just am so convinced that it will never happen. It will never be implemented because it can’t be implemented anymore, with 700,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem occupied, and nobody in Israel will ever be able to evacuate 700,000 settlers, mainly because they are the strongest political group in Israeli politics. So continue to speak about the two state solution is playing into the hands of the occupation. It means we have on the shelf some solution, and one day, we’ll use it. And this is very comfortable for the EU, for the United States, even for the Palestinian Authority, and obviously, even for Israel, yeah, two-state solution one day, not now, when we don’t know an occupation gets stronger and stronger. The two state solution is the train that left the station, and there is only one alternative to two state solution. And what is that? And the alternative is only the one state solution. Now you will ask me, one state- how will they live together, with all the hatred and the fears? So I must tell you, first of all, they are living together for decades. We are in a one state. We don’t have to create it. It is there. All the Palestinians between the river and the sea are living under Israeli control, under Israeli rule. And the only thing that should be changed is the regime of this one state, and we have to start to work on it. At least we have a vision of one person, one vote, this very basic thing for democracy, outspoken thing, namely equality. That’s the only thing we are asking for equality. And if Israel says no to equality, Israel, by itself, declares itself as an official, formal apartheid state. We have to work it. We have to change the discourse, not to speak about settlers and not about boundaries, but about the democratisation between the river and the sea, one democratic state.

Pervaiz Alam: Do you really think this is going to happen? Even the two-state solution is a problem for Israel and for lots of Israeli supporters.

Grandparents killed in Holocaust, parents fled from Europe…

Pervaiz Alam: Your father opened a bakery shop?

Pervaiz Alam: What happened to them?

Pervaiz Alam: And you joined the defence forces. IDF, right? You worked with them.

Gideon Levy: Absolutely, I was a good Tel Aviv boy!

Good Tel Aviv Boy works for Israeli Army, Zionism, Shimon Peres and Haaretz…